No religion should be tax exempt

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo) 12/17/2019 at 09:25 • Filed to: None

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Scientology, Catholicism, and others have used it to mass fortunes and protect corruption.  I am not against religion, although I am not religious myself.  But religion is business, and should pay taxes like the rest of us.

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AestheticsInMotion > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:33

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Strongly agree 

WilliamsSW > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:34

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Please please please yes

Just Jeepin' > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:36

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I guess the question is where does that leave charities? If a church can simply call itself a charity instead I doubt the tax change would have much impact.

Milky > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:38

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I’m with you, but also a lot of small churches struggle. So how about tax on money over a certain amount?  This shit is wild:

My bird IS the word > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:39

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The reason religions are tax exempt is to prevent persecution, not because they do or do not deserve to be taxed.

Also mormanism is a cult.

WilliamsSW > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 09:42

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Giving them tax   exempt status has enabled the rich churches to be the persecuters instead of the persecuted.

And all religions are cults, really.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:43

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I laughed at this, not because you are wrong per se, but because my tiny church is definitely not a business. We manage to keep the roof intact and the lights on, but also have no paid staff, so no profit motive for anyone. I realize that we may be the exception.

I think that @my b ird IS the word has an interesting point about risks of persecution through taxation.

Ash78, voting early and often > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:43

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As the chair of a church finance committee ( in a major denomination) , we simply have no margins for this. I won’t even get into the in-kind benefits to the community, like serving as a polling place for elections, food bank distribution, etc. Good churches definitely pull their weight and don’t take the status for granted.

That said, there are LOT of quasi-religious organizations with little oversight who are clearly using tax exempt status to get away with a lot of questionable shit. So I’d say tax exempt status needs to be a case-by-case thing.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:46

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i agree, when you have assholes like joel osteen preying on the weak churches need to be taxed

Sovande > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:47

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WE FINALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My bird IS the word > WilliamsSW 12/17/2019 at 09:48

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Yeah, like the government collecting taxes has never persecuted anyone either. Question is, whose boot do you want on your neck?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Milky 12/17/2019 at 09:48

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Th is is the proper balance. No one thinks the tiny, corner church with the faded white exterior paint is robbing the populace. So if you taxed after 10 million, no one would bat an eye in almost every situation besides the megachurches and grifters like pat robertson.

Sovande > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 09:48

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That’s a load of nonsense! Of course they deserve to be taxed. The Catholic Church is one of the largest land owners in the country and they don’t pay taxes on any of it. It’s billions and billions of lost tax revenue.

Tripper > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:50

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I couldn’t agree more

facw > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 09:51

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All organized religions are cults. Some are certainly more exploitative than others, but the Mormans are far from the worst.

Sammyno55 > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:51

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I’ve been thinking for years about opening a craft brewery. Obviously, I instead need to open a church of hops. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Just Jeepin' 12/17/2019 at 09:53

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I assume charities have to be more transparent (not opposed to this for religious organizations).

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/features/how-donate-wisely-and-avoid-charity-scams

WilliamsSW > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 09:53

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Neither one. But what’s special about religion versus everyone else?  

facw > Ash78, voting early and often 12/17/2019 at 09:55

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Town where I used to live moved the polling place from the fire station to a church, and frankly I thought it was incredibly inappropriate. I mean I’m sure the church was just trying to be a good member of the community by providing the space, but I should not have to be walking under a giant “God is still watching” (or similar) banner to vote, and there are some religions that aren’t ok with people even going into another religion’s house of worship. The town should have just had the polling place at a school like a normal municipality.

Mercedes Streeter > Just Jeepin' 12/17/2019 at 09:57

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Charities are also an interesting subject. So many of them operate like churches: They collect money like crazy then give back practically nothing.

https://smartasset.com/mortgage/the-50-worst-charities-in-america-how-to-keep-from-being-scammed

Ideally, I'd say tax churches and prevent their reclassification into a charity. And for charities, to keep such classification (or to avoid taxes) they should have to actually give a sizable percentage of their money to the cause they say they support.

facw > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 09:59

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No problem with that. If they are actually charitable, let them follow the same rules as non-profit charities.

That said, I do think it’s ok for organizations to have an endowment, and not just spend everything that comes in. Granted endowments usually payout instead of just accumulating, though if it’s true that they were spending $6B of their $7B income that doesn’t seem that different than putting the $7B into their endowment and then paying expenses from their fund. There is of course the separate questions of whether their payouts were corrupt (they sound potentially a bit shady), and whether their fund managers are overcompensated.  

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:00

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I understand giving churches breaks when they operate as some kind of charity/community centre, but that should be based on the services they provide not their religious nature. I agree religions should not be exempt from taxes. I also think the wealthiest (8 figures type situation)  could stand a little more taxation 

facw > Just Jeepin' 12/17/2019 at 10:01

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Greater transparency is required of charities. There’s still a lot of room for reform in terms of charities though.

For Sweden > Ash78, voting early and often 12/17/2019 at 10:04

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“As th e chair of a church finance committee" first question how dare you

3point8isgreat > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:05

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Im not sure I have this correct since I’ve never done business taxes. But it’s my understanding that businesses pay taxes on their profits, with all sorts of calculations on stuff like depreciation to decide how much of their operating cost can be deducted.

So what if churches had similar calculations, such that them doing the kinds of community charity that people expect of them is a deduction. Then itd encourage them to actually use the money they’ve got to go out and help.

Although this may be something regular non-profit charities have to show in order to keep their status. In which case making churches be more transparent seems like itd work fine.

bob and john > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:05

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On one hand, i agree, but on the other, I also think that there shouldn’t be taxation without representation, and there is no way in ANYONE’S hell do i want a ny church/religion making any sort of choices that effect our day to day lives.

Thomas Donohue > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:07

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I’m not going to argue that churches/religions should not be taxed, but I do think that a documented and accredited non-profit that provides a social service should be tax exempt.

I also realize that a designation of a ‘ non-profit’ is a fine line, which is why I support the third-party auditing of these groups, which should be paid for by the orga nization and their donors.

Side note: I think the Righteous Gemstones (HBO) is a really great show. If you haven’t seen it, find a way to watch it.

DipodomysDeserti > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 10:09

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The reason they’re tax exe mpt is because all non profits in the US are tax exempt, genius. The First fucking Amendment covers the whole persecution of religion thing.

PowderHound > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:09

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Agree but doubt it will ever change. I saw this last night and said “wow what a shocker...” to myself. KSL and Deseret News (church owned news) seem to have 0 coverage on this as of this morning. Salt Lake Tribune had it up last night around 10:30-11

Ash78, voting early and often > For Sweden 12/17/2019 at 10:10

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I got voluntold . It’s how everything works with Methodists.

Ash78, voting early and often > facw 12/17/2019 at 10:12

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I don’t disagree, there’s always the possibility for subtle intimidation of voters. And I’m sure if someone saw fit to sue, they’d have a case. At the church where I vote and the church where I attend (2 places), both are polling places and just have people come into a general common area with no religious imagery at all .

Those places just work well because it doesn’t upset the school schedule (on a Tuesday) and there are more churches than schools, so that works out, too.

benn454 > facw 12/17/2019 at 10:18

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 Plus there's the whole separation of church and state thing.

and 100 more > Sovande 12/17/2019 at 10:24

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Ahem... not to correct you, but...

DipodomysDeserti > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:24

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Churches are only tax exempt because of their 503(c)(3) status (non profits) . There are p lenty of other sketchy non profits that also don’t pay taxes. Used to do a lot of work for them. They get a huge discount on postage, too, and would often times sneak campaign material in (which is a big no-no with the IRS). Post office would never check shit. I did have a client once give me a falsified non profit ID number to a company that had a similar name. Thankfully the postal employee caught it and gave me a heads up. It was pretty satisfying charging them to print all their mail again.

At least with a church they’re upfront about their ideology . Buying into it is 100% on you. I did work for “women’s healthcare providers” that were really just anti abortion campaigners.

WilliamsSW > Sammyno55 12/17/2019 at 10:26

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Sign me up!

dogisbadob > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:31

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agree

Textured Soy Protein > 3point8isgreat 12/17/2019 at 10:39

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Just playing devil’s advocate here (ha) but how would you propose assigning a monetary value to all the volunteer and donation work of religious organizations , or really any nonprofit ? Sure there are supplies to be purchased, employees to be paid, etc. But what about all the unpaid volunteers and non-monetary donations like coat drives, food drives, etc ? H ow would they deduct that from their profits?

DipodomysDeserti > Ash78, voting early and often 12/17/2019 at 10:39

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I find it ironic that the Pharisees tried to put Jesus’s ass in a sling by asking him if Jews had to pay taxes, and his response was kind of a smart ass “of course they do.” But modern day churches are like, but he was just kidding, obviously. Who’s this Caesar guy anyways?

Ash78, voting early and often > benn454 12/17/2019 at 10:41

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That’s been pretty well covered before, they just require that the church not hold polling where proselytizing occurs or where imagery is on display.

I’m more inclined to want a separation of basketball and state. By voting, I feel compelled to dunk, even though I can’t touch the rim in the church gym.

DipodomysDeserti > Sammyno55 12/17/2019 at 10:42

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There’s a Church of Peyote in Arizona. Not sure if you could convinc e the man that beer is apart of native religious practices.

Mid Engine > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:45

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Spend an afternoon roaming the halls of the Vatican, assuming you can afford the entrance fee to do so. There 100's of billions of dollars of art the church was gifted, but mostly stole for their own purposes. Sistine chapel is a good example: church told Michaelangelo to get busy painting. He’s like “my dude, I’m a sculptor, I don’t paint”. Paint or die.

If the Catholic church sold 1% of their hoards of precious art on the open market annually they could fund their far reaching dynasty easily. Nah, it’s easier and far more profitable to persuade parishioners working three jobs to kick in 10% of their hard earned money. Organized religion makes me sick. In the words of Frank Zappa: tax the churches, and tax the businesses the churches own.

DipodomysDeserti > Textured Soy Protein 12/17/2019 at 10:51

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If someone chooses to volunteer for a for profit business, that’s just free labor for the business. As for non cash donations, that’s already something non profits and for profits have to account for. Generally, the tax burden falls on the giver, rather than the recipient. However, you only have to pay over a certain yearly amount.

benn454 > Ash78, voting early and often 12/17/2019 at 10:57

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I was going to make a joke about g etting Jesus to help you out, but didn’t want it to come off as snarky which wasn’t my intention.

So I’ll just go with, sounds like you need a Red Bull.

Maxima Speed > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 10:59

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Religion is absolutely NOT business in many of the scattered little churches across this country. The c hurch I go to, we support one man who preaches sermons and does mission work and such full time. We collectively give enough to keep the lights on and to give him a very modest life. In effect we, the congregation, pool our labor in order for one man to complete the charitable and “religious” endeavors that we ourselves wish to complete but have lack of resources to do individually (whether this resources be time, money, skill, etc.). I see nothing there that should be taxable in any way, in a moral or just society. We the congregation already paid taxes on our income, why should we have yet still more of our money taken away?

I see in another comment you mention having to pay $ 160,000 in taxes to state and federal by Jan 15th. Thats absolutely absurd amount to have to pay, and to what purpose. Instead of saying “tax churches” how about we actually have a much more relevant and sane conversation about taxation of businesses which is so ridiculously out of hand. Why should we tax a small business when business helps the collective economy? My aunt and uncle own a small business and are being charged $3000 for income from February of last year except they made $0 dollars in February. The government’s ridiculous and unchecked spending is out of hand and taxing ANYONE more is just so asinine it makes my blood boil.

Look, heres my view on it and I think you can understand as you’ve expressed some libertarian sentiments before.

Representational government is a co-op. We, the people have banded together for mutual defense and economic benefit. We contribute our labor (primarily through taxation, ie. a monetization of our labor) into the collective coffer in order to promote our collective safety and economic success. We have appointed people to watch over our labor/money and we have entrusted them with the wise expenditure of said collective labor. The problem is that we the people have reached a point were we no longer own the co-op. We have given our appointed representatives so unlimited a power that they now believe that they own us and our labor.

The people who once merely managed our co-op now literally take a portion of our labor at gun point and can throw us in jail if we don’t pay. Our co-op managers have become task masters who oversee literally EVERY, SINGLE aspect of our lives... and I’m not exaggerating. The government had a hand it what I was allowed to eat this morning for breakfast. How you ask? I can’t legally buy fresh milk from my neighbor because the government has mandated that he is not allowed to sell it t o me. Instead I have to go to the store to buy the government approved milk. I think it is high time we start looking at where the problems in our society truly lie instead of pointing fingers and yelling “H ey, that not fair! ” at the guy who got less money stolen from him.

My bird IS the word > Sovande 12/17/2019 at 11:01

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Again, deserve has nothing to do with it. I wont argue that they dont deserve to be taxed. They arent taxed due to the fact that gocernment and relegion arent supposed to be mixed. Thats why there is separation of church and state. That wasnt an accidental inclusion

ttyymmnn > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 11:03

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Any church that actively campaigns for a specific political candidate should absolutely not be tax exempt. 

Textured Soy Protein > DipodomysDeserti 12/17/2019 at 11:09

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Right now if an individual member of a religious organization makes a large non-monetary donation (clothes, food, etc) that the religious organization then distributes, yes, the individual who did the donating can deduct it.

But, what I’m saying is, let’s say religious organizations were no longer tax exempt, and they were instead required to deduct things from profits. If the things the church does for the community at large should be deductible, then how does the church go about deducting those things when they may not be so easy to determine a monetary value?

Just one example, if a church regularly collects donated clothes for the needy and distributes them in some way. Maybe they have a free thrift store for people to “shop” in, maybe they go to homeless shelters, whatever. And the people staffing the store or driving to shelters are all volunteers. Sure, they could get all the clothes together, count them up, and make a rough guess of the value. Maybe there could be a standard labor rate for volunteers that could be deductible as well, if they’re doing community work that benefits others.

I have loads of problems with organized religion, but to simply take away tax-exempt status for all religious organizations, would be blowing up a whole system that’s enmeshed with our society in all sorts of ways. Any real solution would have to account for collateral damage and unintended consequences.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > PowderHound 12/17/2019 at 11:15

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It’ll be interesting to see if things begin to shift as more and more people from elsewhere move into Utah. Mormons still dominate politics in the state, but I think it’s only a matter of time until they lose their grip.

PowderHound > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 12/17/2019 at 11:37

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One can only hope

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 11:44

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I feel I need to add that I fully agree with you on this.

Cé hé sin > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 12:14

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Why not? No idea of the position in America but here the definitions of a charitable organisation are one whose aims are:

the relief of poverty

the advancement of education

the advancement of religion

any other purpose beneficial to the community (this last being an addition)

There’s no blanket exemption of religious bodies per se but if they qualify as charities they qualify for tax exemptions, but not on all their activities. If a charity has paid employees they need to register as employers and deduct income tax and social insurance and if they run a shop or bar (more a thing done by an amateur sporting organisation who may qualify under no 4) they’ll have to pay VAT on their sales.

In short religions are treated the same as other not-for-profits.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > ImmoralMinority 12/17/2019 at 13:07

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The impetus for America’s revolution against the British Empire was taxation without representation. Nonprofit r eligious organizations are prohibited from direct political action. Taxing them without allowing direct political action is contrary to one of the founding principals of the United States.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Textured Soy Protein 12/17/2019 at 13:47

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if a church regularly collects donated clothes for the needy and distributes them in some way. Maybe they have a free thrift store for people to “shop” in, maybe they go to homeless shelters, whatever. And the people staffing the store or driving to shelters are all volunteers. 

People donating clothes get tax deduction if they want it. Why should the church get a second deduction?

Church is staffed by volunteers - why should the church get a deduction because people volunteered their time?

haveacarortwoorthree2 > bob and john 12/17/2019 at 13:53

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There is representation - the church’s members can vote. 

haveacarortwoorthree2 > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 12/17/2019 at 13:55

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The NPRO’s members can vote. And frankly, if the church was taxed, I think the other limitations should be thrown out as well. 

bob and john > haveacarortwoorthree2 12/17/2019 at 14:05

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....that’s like saying a Business shouldn’t be taxed because its workers are already taxed.

you know dam well thats not even close to the topic.

My bird IS the word > DipodomysDeserti 12/17/2019 at 14:07

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Swearing indicates a calm and rational argument. Also, if we are going to discuss rules, you can explain the first rule of oppo to me

DipodomysDeserti > My bird IS the word 12/17/2019 at 15:11

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A ctually knowing that all 503(c)(3)‘s are tax exempt indicates a rational argument . If we’re going to get sensitive over language, calling something many people hold dear (including mods here), a cult, is probably a bigger violation of the rules.

Textured Soy Protein > haveacarortwoorthree2 12/17/2019 at 15:16

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Right now churches and nonprofits don’t deduct anything because they’re exempt from taxes. So no, they shouldn’t get a second deduction.

But if the church were suddenly subject to taxes, do we as a society not see value in the service provided by the church such that the church shouldn’t be able to deduct those services from their taxes in some way ?

Not to mention, more often than not, most people making small donations to churches, thrift stores, etc, end up not claiming those deductions, thanks to the now-huge standard deductions offered to most individual taxpayers.

Again, I’m not a church enthusiast by any means, but if we were legit going to make religious and other nonprofit organizations pay taxes (which I highly doubt will happen anytime soon in this country) we would need to offer them some ways to deduct stuff for the stuff they do for others.

DipodomysDeserti > Textured Soy Protein 12/17/2019 at 15:27

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But, what I’m saying is, let’s say religious organizations were no longer tax exempt, and they were instead required to deduct things from profits. If the things the church does for the community at large should be deductible, then how does the church go about deducting those things when they may not be so easy to determine a monetary value?

The same way every other for profit company records tax deductible donations. For profit companies donate in-kind gifts all the time. It’s a pretty well established aspect of our tax code. As for volunteer labor, that’s never been tax deductible, although any funds spent in the service of volunteering are.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > bob and john 12/17/2019 at 15:33

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Huh? I honestly have no damn idea what you are arguing. A business should be taxed because its owners, employees, and customers can vote. If they want that business not to be taxed, they can organize to attempt to obtain that result. Businesses also can set up PACs and joins organizations like the Chamber of Commerce or industry-specific groups.

A church can be taxed because its staff and members can vote. I.e., the church is represented. Similarly, if churches are taxed, they also should be able to participate in politics via contributions, PACs, etc.

If you are arguing that you want to keep religion out of politics/government, that train left the station a long time ago. 

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Mid Engine 12/17/2019 at 15:44

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The Catholic Church has a bureaucracy that rivals many governments. And a net worth that outshines most countries.

Textured Soy Protein > DipodomysDeserti 12/17/2019 at 15:55

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So do you feel that the exact same tax code for businesses should apply to religious/nonprofit orgs? One could argue that religious/nonprofit orgs make charitable or otherwise society-benefiting activities a larger part of their overall time & effort than for-profit businesses, and thus maybe there should be more deductions made available to them.

As I’ve mentioned before, I really don’t like a lot of what organized religion does, for reasons that don’t merit going into here, but I also can acknowledge that there are a ton of these organizations out there, not everything they do is bad, and they’re so woven into so many aspects of our society that twiddling around with their taxable status is no small undertaking.

My bird IS the word > DipodomysDeserti 12/17/2019 at 16:10

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It is objectively a cult because they shun ex members. If questioning leadership is forbidden and they essentially attack anybody that disagrees, its a cult. Hence, many religious sects.

My bird IS the word > DipodomysDeserti 12/17/2019 at 16:11

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Also, i am not arguing the legal reson they are exempt. I am arguing the ethical reason they are/should be exempt.

haveacarortwoorthree2 > Textured Soy Protein 12/17/2019 at 17:35

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I would agree with offering churches the same types of deductions as available to others, as well as allowing them to participate in the political process to the same extent as other businesses. But I would not allow churches to have deductions for giving away items tha t they obtained for free as donations or for utilizing free labor donated to them.

Real world example: My company sponsors a charity and a 10k run. 100% of the $ that goes to the charity gets paid out for projects. 100% of the race registration proceeds goes to the charity. My company covers all the expenses of the charity and all the expenses of putting on the race (along with sponsorships sold). Now the cash outlays are tax deductible for sure, but the employees who do work for the charity and/or the race all do so on a volunteer basis. I don’t get a tax break for that. My company doesn’t get a tax break for that. So why should a church get a tax break for using volunteer time? My point is that the rules -- all the rules -- should apply to all businesses, of which a church is but one example. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 12/17/2019 at 20:02

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Olsteen is the most clever fo the bunch in that he doesn’t make a cent from the church, jsut uses it to hawk his books and speaking engagements